to your account. The choice is yours. It is not an application or a downloadable program. Wayland also removes X11's client-server concept (usually for the better), but you might find that remote desktops don't work the way you're used to. It seem to also support different seats (for gaming/ game controllers). Did anyone get a chance to try the following? The reference Wayland implementation is the Weston compositor. However it has the disadvantage of being a lot more buggy and requiring . The security risk is just too high IMO. It has released multiple improvements and currently posts these to this websitewhen they unveil new versions. This should be much more efficient (both in CPU usage and power consumption) than CPU-side compositing by the X server, but requires caution to ensure that a client cannot draw outside of what Qubes OS considers the borders of its window. privacy statement. The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: Not to rain on the wayland parade, but I'm not convinced the potential benefit over the current system is as large as you portray. ), which Qubes has explicitly architected around not trusting. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=423230. A few thoughts I wanted to write down so I don't forget: The main reason I wanted to start this in the first place was multiple DPI support, and that could be useful, although we have to deal with privacy concerns. The simpler code that has been written for this protocol also gives it a performance edge over X11. Re: Wayland alternatives to X11 commands. Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community. If for some reason that is invalid (or missing) then generating a custom edid.bin (with the desired display resolution) may be necessary. In simple terms, X Windows System and Wayland determine how your program's display will appear depending on your actions. I think KDE, GNOME, and Sway (i3 clone) support server-side decorations, so it shouldn't be too bad. If the X11 sommelier instance crashes in this setup, it takes all running X11 programs down with it. I have read and understood the privacy policy and am able to consent to it. The basic concept behind the process model for Wayland is that it is the server and client combined, which means it communicates directly with the compositor. In this post, we will compare Wayland to X11, look at the advantages of each one, and learn more about window management in Linux. However, that reminds me of another problem: Screen lockers, like the rest of the compositor, are all part of the same window manager process. https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform2/+/HEAD/vm_tools/sommelier/. An X11 sommelier instance provides X11 forwarding. However, wl_shm::create_pool and wl_shm events should be . There is currently no working draft to make it a standard. The X11 machine runs the ChromeOS X11 driver, with a client which plays video through OpenGL ES at all times. Simply put, Wayland is a display server protocol that seeks to replace X11. I'm having a hard time deciding whether to use X11 or Wayland for my KDE / Plasma session as I seek the best from both worlds. Multiple X11 sommelier instances can be used for improved isolation or when per-client configuration is needed, but it will be at the cost of losing the ability for programs to use the X server for communication between each other. because I'm always using remote connection to use my pi, and with wayland the experience is really bad and I can't use V3D, only the software renderer. This makes load times much quicker in theory and is technically easier to implement, thanks to the simplified codebase that Wayland brings to the table. However, I'd say that it's worth trying out now at least, especially for people who mainly use their RPi as a desktop computer. What exactly would Wayland improve about this? An AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT graphics card was used for all the testing today with many of the games being tested at both 1080p and 4K. Add in higher resolutions AND multiple displays.and things get dicey REALLY quickly. Animations would stutter and freeze, and the system in general would feel sluggish on X11, while now it's so weirdly smooth with Wayland, that I'm kinda still in shock at how well it's all running. I believe this is highly unlikely to happen. X has no issue with this so I use that on the desktop. No one expects Wayland to already support everything it has to. We use MIT-SHM extension Commands, including shared memory setup and keyboard input, should be proxied through a client in the guivm and a stub compositor in the appvm. (I may also just be misunderstanding X Display Lists though). At minimum, it would just be to have coloured decorations. My phone has 320+dpi. Since switching to a 144 Hz monitor, I visually noticed that desktop compositing still runs at 60 FPS in the X11 Plasma session (doesn't affect Wayland). Wayland is also superior when it comes to security. Because Wayland is a protocol it takes quite a different approach to traditional X11 programmed applications, which also hampers its adoption. As of this beta the WebXR support for Godot 4 is now fully on par . However, It still may make graphics acceleration with GPU passthrough easier, as there is no need to mess with X11 graphics extensions, only OpenGL/CL libraries. Raspberry Pi 4B 4GB / Bullseye 64-bit Beta / Openbox / Thunar. Plasma would just crash. The application itself draws the window that it will run in, instead of like in the case of the X11 server that needed to relay this information back and forth between the application and the compositor. Use Wayland instead of X11 to increase performance. X has two drawing APIs. Just wanted to say hi. In the past we've looked at the Radeon Linux gaming performance for X.Org vs. Wayland. From what I understand, this is true in "standard" Wayland, but there is a wlroots protocol extension, "input inhibitor", that allows the screen locker to operate as a separate process. shaders can be mutually isolated in different address spaces, enforced in hardware. His own proxy (written in OCaml) is probably a better choice. Seems like it can be used as X11 compositor as well, and can replace current qubes-gui and qubes-guid. I recommend against Sommelier. The protocol that Wayland uses also makes it easier for designers and developers alike to create cross-platform apps, which have always suffered from problems rendering on Linuxdue to compatibility issues between various versions of GTK or Qt. This has slowed down adoption to a certain extent, but most popular Linux distributions have made it available as part of their environments. Screen lockers, like the rest of the compositor, are all part of the same window manager process. The performance in those other workloads was obviously unchanged but it was the overall RAM usage and power consumption we were most curious about: Over the course of all the benchmarks ran, using the GNOME Wayland session led to ~200MB higher RAM usage compared to the X.Org session. Shared memory does open us up to easy cache attacks, but I can't think of any one can do based off of a framebuffer, especially since one does not generally draw directly onto it because of double buffering, IIRC. Copyright 2012 KDE Community Forum Team. The memory use was looking at the freshly booted system's memory usage from Fedora 27 Workstation under X.Org and Wayland while idling at the desktop . Method. Just as X.org didn't have XRandr and Xcomposite and XRender from day one, so Wayland doesn't have some features from day one. X11 has been around for a while, and is starting to show its age thanks to legacy code that bloats the system. Wayland is designed to be easier to use than X11. I actually enjoy using it now. Wayland is a display server protocol that is a FreeDesktop.org project with development being driven by multiple organizations. If you are running production systems or systems that rely on legacy applications, then X11 will be the better choice for you. But in the first version it probably will have full control. The NVIDIA Wayland support with GBM usage has stabilized and appears to be in good shape for the upcoming Ubuntu 22.04 LTS release. The user-space start-up time was quicker with the Wayland-based GNOME 3.26 Shell session taking just 22.4 seconds compared to 25.3 seconds reported by systemd when using the GNOME Shell on X.Org. It's shockingly snappy, but be sure to run it from an SSD or else you'll have a bad time! specifically to map the composition buffers directly into X server, @blacklight447 Yes, screen lockers are harder to crash in Wayland. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. This presumes that those are not in the GPUs address space. Xlib and XCB are libraries implementing the client-side of the Xserver/X Windowing system display server protocol (speaking the X11 protocol). Other approaches which somehow result in at least some kind of indirect hw acceleration like Virgil 3d (translate/emulate shader IL) is a graphics-analog of QEMU (in full instruction emulation mode no less! By clicking Sign up for GitHub, you agree to our terms of service and Seems to me to be similar to virtualizing a CPU without SLAT. A 97-page guide to every Cisco, Juniper, F5, and NetApp certification, and how they fit into your career. This is reliable, but it is very slow by modern standards, and when comparing it to newer systems, such as Wayland. For more details, contact the Forum Administrators. They have a lot in common but also some key differences mainly in the way that the graphical data is relayed between application, window manager/compositor. It pits Wayland vs Xorg but each has their place. This should be much more efficient (both in CPU usage and power consumption) than CPU-side compositing by the X server, but requires caution to ensure that a client cannot draw outside of what Qubes OS considers the borders of its window. The clients applications need to communicate with the X11 server before the compositor (window manager) can generate the window that is needed for the application to render properly. Wayland is cool but only supported by GNOME, KDE and sway. https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/gui/#window-content-updates-implementation, https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-gui-agent-linux/blob/master/xf86-input-mfndev/src/qubes.c, https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-gui-agent-linux/blob/8c1238b/gui-agent/vmside.c#L261-L303, https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-gui-daemon/blob/94fd49d/gui-daemon/xside.c#L2274-L2363, Change default screen locker from XScreenSaver, http://phd.mupuf.org/files/fosdem2013_drinext_drm2.pdf, Make sharing a single window work with Jitsi in Firefox, https://spectrum-os.org/lists/hyperkitty/list/discuss@spectrum-os.org/thread/3VYGG3QLV37IJDQL3SZZMTOTJ5ZZKZFL/, https://app.bountysource.com/issues/52352776-use-wayland-instead-of-x11-to-increase-performance, https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform2/+/HEAD/vm_tools/sommelier/. As a result, today, X11 acts largely as "a really terrible" communications protocol between the client and the window manager. Wayland has been in development for a long time, so it is quite possible that unexpected issues could delay it even further. Of these, 3 and 4 seem the most promising to me. A single X11 sommelier instance is typically shared across all X11 clients as they often expect that they can use a shared X server for communication. It's better now though a small difference is still perceptible between the two. But this could be still useful thing to do. Fact is, X11 still shines to me as an end-user. Lots of screen flickering, in fact, it's my new strobe light for inducing personal seizures. Wayland could make things easier here. Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !! My understanding is that that is just buffer management everything else is handled in hardware. The current gui protocol/implementation already does have guests blit directly to a shared-memory framebuffer not requiring any copying between VMs. I'm having a hard time deciding whether to use X11 or Wayland for my KDE / Plasma session as I seek the best from both worlds. 2 comments 100% Upvoted This means that applications that wish to use Wayland need to give all of their display information to Wayland. At the bottom level of the X client library stack are Xlib and XCB, two helper libraries (really sets of libraries) that . There isnt currently an official draft standard to make Wayland the standard, which means that it could still be some time before it becomes accepted as a mainstream alternative to X11. It also makes tasks such as dragging windows, resizing them or switching them to full screen feel that much more smooth and modern. I'll wait until it's ported to more DE's. for comparison though. All messages belong to and are the opinion of their respective authors.KDE and K Desktop Environment are trademarks of KDE e.V. @marmarek: How much will the GUI protocol need to change? I can think of a few solutions: Do not expose the MMU to VMs attempts to modify the MMU from a VM are trapped and ignored. Awesome. I think we could still reduce RAM usage by sharing the same memory for the framebuffer in the client in the AppVM, the stub compositor in the AppVM, the stub client in the GuiVM, and the real compositor in the GuiVM. Sign in It is written in C++ and Thomas Leonard found that it kept crashing for him. small: I believe this API already exists, it is called "DMA-BUF". Windows XP has 96dpi. Wayland is trying to develop a new way of managing your graphical system and how you interact with it. IMO it's way too complex to be even worth considering from a security standpoint. This thing is now officially a (secondary) desktop computer. small: Of course, these are just ideas, and I could be completely and utterly wrong. 200.43.8.16 We can simply forward events for screen update to the client, although we have to deal with anonymity for anon-whonix, where position of multiple displays could be very revealing. These parameters include screen size of the window, position and state (minimized, maximized etc). I understand this will be a long wait. X11 is very resilient to such things, part of the reason I can think is the age of the codebase. You can. Wayland simplifies the graphics stack by trying to force everything through a GEM/DRM stack and straight into the kernel. Clarification: theoretically GuiVM may not have full control over input. X11 is primarily a display protocol, so it was designed to render graphics over the network. Xorg and X11 protocol in general is quite complex and from time to time we hit some strange interactions between different toolkits and our GUI. X server can do that too if you enable compositing in window manager Long ago, a server would handle all the rendering requests and a rendering workstation would receive the graphics and windows that the server created. X11 (version 11 of X Server) has been in use since 1987, so it is well past its expiration date. Part of this legacy structure is the client/server model that it employs to render windows. I'm definitely in no position to make any promises about this project, but I look forward to seeing a proposal and your patches in general :). Wayland is widely viewed as the likely successor to the X11 Server on the modern Linux desktop with it being supported by multiple Linux distributions. X11 has been in use for a very long time by computing standards, and it is reliable and stable. In a majority of the native Linux games as well as Steam Play titles, the GNOME Wayland session with Ubuntu 21.04 . This means Wayland will need to be adopted by the Linux Foundation and other organizations who can help with development, testing, and promoting its use before it becomes an official standard. It may be reduced to only controlling input focus. Which means, between all of your displays you can only have 32,768 pixels. If you are looking to experiment and try out something new, then Wayland is a great way to do just that. Modern GPUs support both, so one could use hardware isolation between VMs, and software isolation within a VM. Thanks! For the benchmarks today was loading up a clean install of Ubuntu 21.04 with its Linux 5.11 kernel, GNOME Shell 3.38.4, and Mesa 21.0.1 while looking at the gaming performance between the X.Org and Wayland sessions. X11 Sommelier Couple it with recently released Firefox 89 which seems to have gotten a performance boost, and I'm officially in heaven. Wayland has the advantage of being visibly faster, to the point where you can see the mouse cursor and desktop effects working more smoothly. That is to say, the GuiVM is obviously necessarily in the TCB of any VM which it controls input to / sees output from. Too complex? We can remove GVT-g from the picture: I thought it used newer isolation features since my laptop didn't support it, but I guess not. This is by far the best way to see what works best for your own specific needs. Yeah, not the biggest fan of Gnome myself, due to how resource heavy it is on weaker hardware, and not really a fan of the design language, so I usually go for a minimal install with Openbox. Wouldn't using wayland increase the security of xscreensaver too? However, this is also one of the few games stuck to running in windowed mode due to issues introduced with recent updates to the game when benchmarking. At 100dpi that gives you 8.3 meters of display. If you also consider that Wayland is a newer project, it has had less time to gather deprecated and bloated code, making it more agile and reactive than the aged X11 protocol. Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: Do not resort to violence.McGlashan. Your IP: Already on GitHub? While I managed to tweak my desktop settings to prevent the base crashes, I'm now facing. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. This means that we can simply attach GVT-g or comparable hardware graphics virtualuization to VMs without complex modifications to guid. All rendering in the guests happen in software, and IMO that's very unlikely to change unless GPUs get proper memory protection so e.g. Viewing 2 posts - 1 through 2 (of 2 total) . The desktop is very smooth and there's no tearing anymore, on the other hand, Hey, look what I found, it also has the only game I install on all my computers, Is there a way to use X11 on ubuntu 21.04? https://spectrum-os.org/ is a project to build a compartmentalized OS on crosvm, nixos, and wayland, still early days but really exciting. The X server, Wayland compositors, and Mir are implementations of display servers. Wayland also aims to be easier to integrate into Linux systems with more straight-forward code. Furthermore, it manages compositing itself. without copying inside gui-daemon. While obviously suboptimal, this approach works fantastically in one (very important, IMO) use case: gaming. It is lightweight, and it will not take up as many resources on your system as X11 would, although modern systems tend to handle X11 just fine. Wayland has two communication methods; Commands over a Unix socket, and shared memory buffers through a file descriptor with mmap. That is to say, the GuiVM is obviously necessarily in the TCB of any VM which it controls input to / sees output from. All rights reserved.KDE Community Forums has no liability for any content or post. Wayland functionality for Spectrum OS will be integrated into upstream Wayland, which might be interesting for Qubes OS: Wayland rendering performance on X11? [NEW] Ubuntu - CM4/RPi4B custom image(s)! This stability comes at a performance cost, however. (X11) might offer better performance. There is no right answer because both Wayland and X11 are great options with their own pluses and minuses that make them unique in different ways. This can be attributed to the simplified graphics stack in Wayland. The first and most obvious reason why you would want to use Wayland instead of X11 is the reduced latency between opening an application and having it render on your desktop. Wayland allows one to attach multiple displays with different densities, which is important for people with HiDPI laptops who want to use external displays. By submitting this form you agree that you have read, understood, and are able to consent to our privacy policy. Thanks! Raspberry Pi and Android both support Wayland out of the box with no need for any additional drivers. Get great content delivered to your inbox. However, this means that applications that wish to support Wayland will need to be updated or rewritten entirely as a different version to support this new standard. All other games work fine, tried several different video drivers in pairing with several different Proton drivers, just no luck. Wayland handles the clipboard differently from X11, so some programs might not copy and paste as expected. These actions include clicking on a checkbox, moving the windows, clicking a button, etc. Registered users: acrux, Bing [Bot], claydoh, Daphazard, daret, dionatandiego, Google [Bot], Stephen Leibowitz, Powered by phpBB 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group. . It may also be possible to do this in X11 with proper proxying of MIT-SHM, but I can't find any code doing it, and doing so may increase complexity significantly. That said, due to Wayland's forced vsync, gaming on it is utterly digusting. Click to reveal I have had much the same question: is Wayland, which is more elegantly programmed and, when it works, faster, given that it has so many issues? However, down the road it is desirable to move the window manager out of dom0 and remove its ability to control dom0 (and in certain use cases perhaps also remove its ability to control some other VMs managed by an external admin). A little update on this: I found part of the reason why X11 wasn't as fast as Wayland for me. Yesterday it was crap, and ran like expected, today it's a new machine. I also break down what the differences are between them and my personal experiences with each.. So I just updated Ubuntu to 21.04 on my RPi 4 (4GB) yesterday, and I'm shocked at how smooth and snappy it is now after the Wayland migration. X11 has been around for a while, and is starting to show its age thanks to legacy code that bloats the system. The API for 3 sounds (deceptively?) There are also a lot of new features that you can experiment with, like GPU sharing or Wayland specific compositors to try out. This seems simple not more complicated than Xens own management of CPU memory, or a kernels management of mmapd buffers. I hope it is true. But at least for GNOME, there is big push to client-side decorations, so I'm not so sure about it. With Wayland graphics processing happens within the context of the application, and only a framebuffer is shared to the compositor. #archlinux #godofwarpc #linuxgamingPC SpecsSystem specsAMD 3900XT (PBO enabled) - No OC - governor was set to performance by Gamemode and CoreCTRLAMD Sapphir. Wayland has two communication methods; Commands over a Unix socket, and shared memory buffers through a file descriptor with mmap. Currently we only have one GuiVM (dom0) which must already be ultimately trusted and already has full access to everything anyway. For a complete list of X releases check out their website. 46 43 A completely stuttery mess on high framrates/refresh rate. CBT Nuggets uses cookies to give you the best experience on our website. It looks like NVIDIA and AMD also have some interesting (SR-IOV for AMD) isolation features for fancier GPUs, although those seem really really expensive and only easily available on certain servers. I am starting work on forwarding Wayland between VMs. This is a different entity than X11, which was created by the Open Group as an extension of XFree86s design. It may also be possible to do this in X11 with proper proxying of MIT-SHM, It is my understanding that that is already how things are done. It has been in development for some time, which has left many people wondering if it will actually materialize as a viable alternative to X11. Forums / NoMachine Terminal Server Products / Virtual Desktop : Wayland vs. X11 - Gnome Classic vs. Gnome Standard. On sway, swaylock is a completely separate program from the main compositor. Probably the biggest one from the graphics side is that Wayland doesn't do any drawing. Further research does show it is basically PV. This topic has 1 reply, 2 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 2 months ago by fisherman. On twin-GPU systems, where one GPU is not connected to any display, we can give that GPU to a VM entirely, relying on the IOMMU to prevent access to GPU-internal registers and firmware. The power usage, frame 'lateness' (difference between target display time and actual time), and CPU usage are shown, with Wayland providing a dramatic improvement in all these metrics. Commands, including shared memory setup and keyboard input, should be proxied through a client in the guivm and a stub compositor in the appvm. So, from me, including GSoC 2018 (we will apply this year too). Well occasionally send you account related emails. Wayland also aims to be easier to integrate into Linux systems with more straight-forward code. Wayland relies on the display device EDID obtained via the KMS driver (as does Xorg). http://phd.mupuf.org/files/fosdem2013_drinext_drm2.pdf specifically references Qubes, so I would hope that security has been a legitimate consideration in the new API development. I'm on Ubuntu 22.04.1, all latest updates, Nvidia 1650 Q Max with 515 proprietary, and latest steam. I haven't seen any technical write-ups yet, but I'm willing to bet there are still plenty more holes in that interface. X11 for desktop Wayland for Laptop reasoning, everything I need to do works perfectly fine or even better on Wayland. Wayland has also been designed with security in mind and is not vulnerable to the same types of attacks that X11 is, such as the Unauthenticated Access exploit, although this has been patched in later releases for the most part. Glitches with Wayland still are (Based on this week's test on Plasma 5.21.1): Horrible performance compared to X11; Very crashy, especially when hotplugging secondary display. This process is the client side rendering aspect that we mentioned above. Touchpad gestures being one of them. Have a question about this project? Witness the smoothness and snappiness of Ubuntu, on a credit card sized computer with 4 GB of RAM. One of the exceptions was Civilization VI running slower on Wayland than X.Org. Wayland has the advantage of being visibly faster, to the point where you can see the mouse cursor and desktop effects working more smoothly. The reality is that it has been developed over a very long period, which still contains many legacy components within its code that make it very difficult to develop any further. I'm really sorry for this happened. One major advantage of Wayland is that Wayland subsurfaces can be mapped by the GUIVM and composited on the GPU. X11 doesn't support RDP, it supports fake input and screen capture which RDP servers use though. The GVT-g approach of "just try to arbitrate everything in software" strongly reminds one of Xen paravirtualization, which we've moved away from in R4 because it's proven too hard to get right and became a liability. Simply forwarding these commands to the guivm would be dangerous, so we would need to process within the Xorg server then send the displaylist sometime before the end of processing and rendering. Godot continues making improvements to both its X11 and Wayland back-ends while this support on Linux to dynamically load X11 is important for the future Wayland-focused modern Linux desktop. Wayland adds clear separation of applications. There are lots of differences between X and Wayland. Can XWayland be used as a transitional option, if shmoverride is applied to the Wayland compositor too? Wayland uses a simple, modern approach: client side rendering. Cloudflare Ray ID: 777eeb625de7f81a However it has the disadvantage of being a lot more buggy and requiring several tweaks to prevent session crashes, as well as missing features such as no proper clipboard functionality. X11 is the protocol implemented by X Windows System while Wayland is the protocol used by Wayland Compositor. One of the main reasons for X's complexity is that, over the years, its role has changed. settings (I think it's enabled by default). Re: Wayland rendering performance on X11? Performance & security by Cloudflare. Instead, it is a standard or specification that needs to be adopted by window managers and desktop e12/1nvironments. I would be interested in working on this for Google Summer of Code if the Qubes project decides to join. advantages of Wayland is that its faster That's a strange advantage to list. Firefox is particularly bad for this. https://spectrum-os.org/lists/hyperkitty/list/discuss@spectrum-os.org/thread/3VYGG3QLV37IJDQL3SZZMTOTJ5ZZKZFL/, There is now a bounty for this issue https://app.bountysource.com/issues/52352776-use-wayland-instead-of-x11-to-increase-performance, I found this Wayland/X11 nested compositor from ChromiumOS: XFCE4, LXQt, i3-WM, WireGuard, Samba, Kodi, Latest MESA graphics drivers! what has changed with the new ISOs is that plasma-wayland-session is installed now by default and that gives you the option to choose between Wayland and X11 on the logon screen (lower left corner)." This comment indicates that Wayland session has been removed for future ISO Did Manjaro KDE switched to Wayland? The action you just performed triggered the security solution. In the final analysis, you should try installing a fresh OSwith X11 and Wayland and then test it for yourself. Wayland vs X11 Battery Performance Hi, I am quite willing to try Wayland though it's still not too developed in terms of stability when compared to X11 but I came across some claims that since Wayland is newer the battery performance is better on Wayland than X11. It all boils down to what you want to do with your graphical system, what kind of environment you will be running your system in, and compatibility between your applications and Wayland. But I need to run some tests, compare This is why it is possible to forward X11 sessions over SSH, giving you a secure remote session to a graphical desktop on a networked server or PC. As it stands currently, Wayland has support in the GNOME desktop environment and some other platforms such as KDEs KWin. Wayland has the advantage of being visibly faster, to the point where you can see the mouse cursor and desktop effects working more smoothly. 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